Day 41 August 15 Home to Rocky Point and the trip stats

Capture KlamathI took not one single photo today.  Not one.  The 278 mile trip from our COE campground at LePage on the John Day River to our home in Rocky Point is a well traveled, well known route for us. Familiar. I suppose if I were in a different mood I could find something wonderful to photograph, there is beauty everywhere if you take the time to look and to see it.  But on this day, Mo and I were what my daughter calls “barn sour”, we were heading home, fast, and not taking any time for anything except filling the MoHo in Madras.  The sky was a bit cloudy in the morning and the heat of yesterday had cooled.  The temperature was a balmy 60 degrees with a stiff breeze, and we were still in shorts.

We did take a bit of time at our favorite little funky café at the Crater Lake Junction of 138 and 97 for lunch.  We started this trip with breakfast there and decided it would be fitting to try lunch on this final day of travel.  The place is not only famous for breakfast, but has sandwiches, burgers, and real chocolate milk shakes that are renown.  It’s not Western Oregon Cool Food, it’s Eastern Oregon Comfort Food.  Great lunch!

Instead of driving the shortest route home across the beautiful Wood River Valley, we continued south toward Klamath Falls, with plans to stock up on home groceries at Fred Meyer, fill up the MoHo with gas, and dump at the free/donations accepted RV dump in Moore Park.  It added a few miles to our trip, but we wanted to get home fully stocked and ready for the next go round.

I was feeling a bit low as we traveled, remembering all the magnificent beauty we had seen over the past weeks, and the dry dusty eastern side of Oregon between Biggs and Bend wasn’t doing much to cheer me up.  However, once we began slipping into the Klamath Basin, and Klamath Lake opened out in front of me, the magic returned.  I do love this place. The skies blessed me with clarity as well, no fires adding muddiness to the horizon, and the big white puffies accentuated the gorgeous blue. There were white pelicans cruising above the lake, and the east slope of the Cascades were reflected in the water.  There is still snow on Mt McLoughlin, a very unusual sight for mid August.  It has been a cool summer in the Cascades for sure.

photo (15)As we got close to town I got all teary, and told Mo, “I have to see Melody”. She patiently negotiated the town traffic and parking lots with the MoHo and Tracker so I could run into Melody’s workplace for a serious daughter hug.  It was great for me to see her, and I think that the hardest part of the trip was the inaccessibly by telephone while we were in Canada and in many parts of Alaska. Like so many busy families, we often keep in touch by telephone when we can’t get together, and I really missed that.

Once filled and loaded with groceries and dumped, we traveled around Klamath Lake to our home.  It’s always just a little bit scary coming in after being gone for so long, especially since our home caretakers had to leave a bit before we arrived. The long driveway opened up to the cabin, the greenhouse, the gardens, the big house, all sitting there in the brilliant afternoon light, welcoming us back.

The deer still haven’t eaten the roses or the azaleas, even though I last sprayed Liquid Fence more than six weeks ago.  The lawns were still green, the greenhouse intact with tomato plants to the ceiling.  The cool summer has blessed me with a ton of green tomatoes, still, but hopefully they will ripen eventually. We spent the first afternoon just walking around a lot, unloading the necessities, and enjoying that great feeling of coming home. 

It has taken us three days to finish the cleaning up process, but that is less time than I imagined when I looked at all the dirt on all the rigs.  Everything has been washed, cleaned, rubbed, and scrubbed.  The laundry is finished, the ironing is done, the only big job left for me is the final writing of the story.  I somehow stopped when we got to Hinton and never got back to the blog.  Soon.

I did figure out the stats of our trip:

We traveled 7,243 total miles in 41 days, 1,265 miles in the US getting to and from Canada, 3,991 miles in Canada, and only 1,987 miles actually in Alaska.

The total cost of the trip was $6,168, with $4,659 spent on fuel, with an average of 5.14 per gallon since so much of our mileage was in high priced Canada.

We stayed in campgrounds, either dry camping or with hookups 30 nights, with an average cost per night of $23.  Our 11 nights boondocking brought that average down to $17 per night.

We spent very little on excursions, with the Discovery River Trip and the Columbia Glacier Trip costing just $360.

We didn’t eat out very often, and actually managed to cook from our grocery stash for a very large part of the trip.

Total cost per day including food, fuel, camping and all incidentals came to $150.44.  75 bucks per day per person is a darn good price for a fabulous, incredible, life time vacation like this one. 

I took almost 6,000 photos and managed to delete some with about 3,200 left in my Picasa albums. Maybe I’ll delete some more, who knows, but not for some time yet.  I’m having fun picking my ten favorites of each subject, just for fun. 

Day 40 August 14 Visiting old friends Bonners Ferry Idaho to LePage Oregon

Day 40_5381Waking up to gorgeous sunny skies and toasty temperatures, the four of us decided that Sunday brunch beside the Kootenay River would be a great way to share some good times before we continued on our way home. The casino in Bonners Ferry is beautifully situated along the river and the “everything” veggie omelette was wonderful.  We finally left our good company at ten, and pointed the MoHo south on 95, through Sandpoint, toward Coeur d’Alene. 

some haze from fires along the Kootenay River in Bonners FerryI lived in the Coeur d’ Alene area for more than 30 years and coming back always feels like coming home. I have so many memories of those landscapes. Some of those memories are of my children growing up, some are of happy times at the lakes and rollercoasters with my grandsons, others are of the years I spent driving all the back roads and working the mountains. I never fail to feel a bit nostalgic when I am in Northern Idaho, yet as much as I love it, I know I was a different “me” back then.  I don’t think I could go back.

Of course I have old friends there, but none quite so dear as my friend Laura.  Although her kids were the same age as my grandkids, we have great memories of them sharing egg gathering, garden dirt, and summer lakeside playtimes when Coeur D’Alene was one of the loveliest places in the world.  I looked forward to seeing Laura on this sunny summer Sunday.

Laura and I have been friends since the early 80'sAmong many other things, we especially enjoyed shared gardening, our horses, camping trips with our women’s group, and cooking together. With so many miles between us, we don’t get together often, but when we do it is just so wonderful.  Heart friends, that’s what we are.   Laura is married to Alvin, a homebuilder in Coeur d’Alene, and he had some sad stories about the homebuilding industry in the last four years, but good news is that he just finished a beautiful home for some doctor. According to Alvin, the doctor even had trouble getting financing, and the rules and regs associated with building the house were far more daunting than they had been in the past when dealing with the financing companies.  Interesting stuff.

Day 40_5392The best part of the mid-day visit however, was the fun getting lost in Laura’s crazy gardens.  Laura laughingly called herself a “garden hoarder”, and I think she is right.  Lush, crazy, out of control gardening at its finest.  Laura is a respiratory RN at Deaconess in Spokane, and I’m not quite sure how she manages her acre of garden insanity while working full time and taking care of her little granddaughter.  We had a lovely lunch of garden goodies, topped of with some iced herbal tea while catching up on stories about old friends, family, kids, and grandkids.  It was a great way to make a long drive a bit more fun.

Laura and hubby Alvin in the kitchen he builtBy the time we left Laura’s it was close to 2 in the afternoon, and we decided that we were going to just drive until we reached the Columbia River.  It put us ahead of time an extra day, without the night in Spokane that we originally planned, and that sounded great to both of us.

We drove through the dry, open, dusty farmlands of eastern Washington, negotiated the winding ramps and exits of the Tri-Cities on 395 and fought the winds on I-84 along the Columbia River.  Our favorite little overnight spot at the LePage COE campground had number 11 open and waiting, even without a reservation.  Half price at ten bucks for electric and water is a deal for sure.  Again, it was hot and we really wanted power, but once we settled in the breezes started up in full force and we cooled down for a good night’s sleep before starting the last leg home. We started the trip with the first night out in LePage and spent out last night on the road here as well.

Capture 359 milesMiles driven today:  359

The rest of the photos from this day are linked here

Day 1 July 6 Crossing Oregon

Alaska Day 1 and Day 2No matter what the destination, you have to cross familiar territory in the beginning.  It was that way for us this morning as we completed the final check of all the lists, hooked up the Tracker, and drove down Easy Street toward Alaska.  The morning was incredibly brilliant, clear blue skies reflected on the still surface of the wildlife refuge bordering Rocky Point Road. The temperature read a balmy 62*, the warmest morning yet since some time last year.

Making notes, writing down the mileage, plugging in the details to my favorite little iPhone app that we use to keep track of our trip expenses, I barely had time to get settled before the freezer door flew open food started sliding out onto the floor.  UhOh.  Our clip on the freezer latch broke off some time last year, but the suction usually keeps it tightly closed. With the cost of food in Alaska, I had that baby crammed full, too full.  After some rearranging the latch held tight again.  Guess we will have to replace that one.  A couple of years ago we had to replace the one on the refrigerator door as well.  Cheap little plastic thingys, that sure don’t seem to hold up well considering the cost and quality of the big Dometic fridge.

Oregon day 1

We stopped as usual at one of our favorite little diners for the traditional departure breakfast at the Diamond Lake junction.  I have written about this one before, the huge Bigfoot breakfast that we share, and then have enough leftovers to share again.  The road was easy, the pavement smooth, the route so familiar, but I enjoyed every minute of the driving time.  Mo, on the other hand, wasn’t sure that she liked being the passenger with Jeremy thinking that he needed to get on her lap, claws and all, and she was wearing shorts.  Silly driving things that make the trip fun and familiar.  We are used to our routines, as are our animals.  I guess that is why we love to travel so much.  We travel well together, and enjoy the changing pace and getting outside the lovely simple box of our everyday life.

Oregon day 1-1Once beyond Madras, the high plateau of central Oregon becomes dry and barren.  This is the southern edge of the Columbia Basalt Plateau, and the soils are thin, some as little as 4 inches over the hard rock, and the precipitation is low.  I don’t know why, but this part of Oregon seems more desolate and barren to me than even the dry deserts of Arizona, or the open sage land of eastern Oregon. 

Oregon day 1-9In the midst of this barren landscape is the small pioneer town of Shaniko.  We decided with the temperatures climbing into the 90’s, it might be time for a Shaniko ice cream cone.  Mo waited in the cool rig while I walked around the tiny town taking some photos before I bought of couple of chocolate cones from some very sweet ladies in the well known tourist stop. Perfect lunch.

It wasn’t long before we dropped down the long canyon to Biggs and the Columbia River.  The thermometer read 101 when we hit I-84. Another glitch: what in the heck was that awful smell??  With the heat, it seemed to get worse and worse, and we couldn’t identify it.  I panicked thinking that maybe the new batteries were heating up, but Mo was pretty sure we had something dead in the guts of the rig somewhere and the heat was making it worse.  Ah yes, rigs and mice.  That seems to be a fairly common topic among RV’rs.  Opening the Fantastic fan and putting it on high seemed to help a bit, and while the smell still isn’t gone, it seems to be getting better.  Yeah, that mouse will eventually dry out completely.  Ugh.  The mouse traps are still set and nothing is in them. 

Oregon day 1-21The temperatures were way too high to think about boondocking as planned, we definitely needed the air conditioner.  Instead we traveled east toward LePage Park, the COE campground where we often overnight on our way through this area.  Without reservations we still got a great spot with a view of the John Day River for only ten bucks with our Golden Age Pass, including electric and water.  Perfect and it was only 4:30 or so.

Within ten minutes we were settled in and Abby was in the water for a swim.  We decided there was plenty of time for an evening kayak and within a few more minutes we were at the launch site with the kayaks in the water.  The winds were up a bit, but we decided that with the winds going upstream we could manage the current coming down.  The mighty Columbia River was under the interstate bridge to our left and the John Day River to our right.  We paddled upriver with the wind for a time until the waves and wind got too big to manage before we turned around and with the wind and the current, we had some nice quiet time in the doldrums, not moving at all while we relaxed on the river.

Oregon day 1-31Suddenly we saw a fire flare up on the opposite bank, and I pulled the phone out of the dry bag to call 911.  Cell reception on the river was great, and 911 answered immediately.  They were unconcerned, saying that the fire had been burning for a couple of days and they were letting it go.  OK.  Fire in the west, on the grasslands along the river is probably a good thing, a natural cleansing of the land.  Camped safely on the other side of the river with winds blowing away from us, no one seemed to troubled.

Oregon day 1-37We paddled back downriver toward the bridges and went far enough to technically say that we paddled in the Columbia before we headed back inland.  The Columbia is a big, strong, powerful river, and neither one of us wanted to tackle it on a hot afternoon with the famous high winds blowing hard. 

Back in camp we got out the new Weber Q100, to try it out with a couple of pork chops and a beer.  By the time we settled in to sleep, the evening breezes were strong and cool enough to make sleeping just right. 

The end of the beginning, our first day out.  Perfect.Oregon day 1-45

A link to the rest of the photos at Picasa is here.

Tomorrow: A short drive to Toppenish

Can you leave the MoHo at home to go on a picnic?

DSC_0044For several days now the weatherman has hinted at lovely spring weather just over the horizon, and we thought it would be great to take a day trip and just enjoy the sun and warmth.  It’s been such a long, cold spring, with very little sunshine. With a 70 degree forecast for last Sunday I decided that a nice little road trip to explore the Applegate Valley and Jacksonville would be fun.  We woke to gray, cloudy skies and a thermometer that struggled to get to 50 degrees.  Around 11 there was a bit of a break and we decided to make the break ourselves and go for it.  I made egg salad sandwiches and loaded up our backpack picnic kit with wine, chips, and cherries, and we jumped into the Lexus for a comfortable car trip over the mountain.
CaptureEven though it was cloudy all day, we had a good time and enjoyed doing something different for a change from gardening and working around home.  Although we do drive to Medford fairly often, there are some side trips around Southern Oregon that we still haven’t seen.  The Applegate Valley is one of those trips.  The route took us over 140 as usual, but we left the main highway to travel through Eagle Point and then took another side road from Eagle Point through Gold Hill to avoid the standard Interstate 5 route to Grants Pass and the beginning of the Applegate Valley Trail.
The trees on the west side are fully leafed out now, with myriad shades of verdant green.  Most of the flowering trees are past their prime bloom while those we have at home are just barely starting.  I think Rocky Point is at least a full month behind the Medford area when it comes to the spring season.  We ambled along Highway 234 west through the Sams Valley, crossing the Rogue River with a stop for photos of a local bridge.
Capture2DSC_0071The river was running wild and full to it’s banks, but even with all our rain this year, I haven’t heard much about flooding. Continuing west through Gold Hill, we found ourselves in the midst of some kind of “Gold Hill Days” with the main street north completely closed off by vendors and booths and many antique cars.  If it had been a bit easier to park, and if the day had been sunny and warm, we may have allowed ourselves to digress from our planned destination and check out the events.  Instead, we routed back over the river and under the interstate to wander peacefully along meandering old Highway 99 until we reached the turnoff for the Applegate Valley just south of Grants Pass.
DSC_0082The Applegate Valley Wine Trail is one of Oregon’s newest “appellations”, with a climate that is warmer and drier than much of the Willamette Valley wine areas. The vineyards follow the river along the higher stream terraces and support Chardonnay, Syrah, and some Bordeaux red wines.  Oregon is famous for some of its Pinot Noir’s, so the valley offers something a bit different.  Mo and I enjoy good wine, but sometimes the pretentious aspect of “wine tasting” will keep us from dropping into these little wineries. This time was no different, we drove by the beautiful signs, enjoyed the gorgeous views, and enjoyed the ride without stopping for a taste. I think that sometime I would enjoy touring the wineries with friends, or even with a group.  Our summer neighbors in Rocky Point often travel this route and come home with cases of really good wine.  I think we may go with them sometime to get our wine tasting feet wet. Except for our little foray in the Finger Lakes District of New York last fall, the last time I really did some extensive wine tasting was in the Napa Valley back when the pours were free!
DSC_0102DSC_0084Of course, I have no such reservations when it comes to nurseries.  Near the tiny town of Murphy, we passed a riot of color along the highway and within seconds, Mo whipped around and we checked out the most beautiful nursery full of hanging baskets I have seen in years.  The owners were wonderful about me walking around taking photos, but I still felt I should at least buy something token to thank them for just being there.  She laughed when I told her we were from Klamath Falls, since she had raised her children in Klamath, and was really loving her long growing season there along the Applegate. I left with some perfect fuchsias for the baskets waiting at home for sunnier, warmer weather.
After a nice stop for Abby on their grassy lawns (doggie bags of course!) we continued down the highway south toward Ruch and Applegate Lake.
DSC_0098Another thing that Oregon is noted for are the covered bridges throughout the state. There are several along many of the routes that we drive, and some folks even make a tour of seeing them all.  South of Ruch, only eight miles north of the California border, is Oregon’s southernmost span, the McKee Bridge.  Built in 1917 by John Hartman of Jacksonville, it served mainly for mining and logging traffic until 1956 when it was finally declared unsafe for vehicular travel.  In the early 1980’s, townsfolk were troubled by the strength of the bridge, and in 1985 more than $40,000 was dedicated to repair the bridge and keep it open for pedestrians.DSC_0127
The bridge has a 122 foot span, 45 feet above the Applegate River and is supported by a Howe truss with beautiful flying buttresses.  The scenic little park, built by the CCC in the 1930’s nestles into the west bank of the river by the bridge. An amazing special DSC_0125touch were the wooden panels installed on the original bridge siding, specifically dedicated to folks who wanted to add their own touch to the bridge, aka graffiti.  The best part was that the graffiti was actually confined to the dedicated boards!
It was here that we found a perfect place to pull out the sandwiches and wine.  I guess I should have taken photos of the signs posted on nearly every single tree and table and fence post, proclaiming loudly in capital letters, NO ALCOHOL.  Thank goodness I don’t have as many readers as Al, who was lashed for talking about lemons, or Rick, who was castigated for doggie’s off leash, because I opened my bottle of wine and poured it into the little plastic picnic glasses with relish. We sat by the river at the substantial old picnic table for a long time, enjoying the water and our lunch. We were even treated to watching a couple of folks walk down to the river, drop in their lines, and seeing a good sized trout jumping on that line after the first cast!
DSC_0095DSC_0139After relaxing, walking, eating and just enjoying the park and bridge, the hour was getting late, but we didn’t want to miss a visit to Applegate Lake, just south toward the California line.  So much of the history of the Applegate River and valley are associated with gold discovery, and gold mining, and there are still many folks who dredge parts of the Applegate River for gold.  On the banks of the lake, which is dammed, are several campgrounds, and we wanted to check them out.  The day was still cloudy and dark, and the campgrounds were very nearly empty.  We saw one park, right on the lake, that was basically an asphalt parking lot on the beach and could only imagine just how crowded it might be in summer.  The other two parks weren’t very rig friendly and too far from the water’s edge to comfortably carry down our kayaks.  It might be fine to go to the parking lot campground early on a weekday in the summer to try kayaking the lovely lake with it’s complex shoreline.
The rain didn’t start up until we drove through Ruch on the way to Jacksonville.  I love Jacksonville, an historic little town with shops and restaurants and beautiful trees.  The Britt Festival is held here each summer, and Mo and I have been to many great shows on the lawns of Britt.  Today, however, we just drove through, deciding to save more explorations of Jacksonville for the last of summer Whole Town Garage Sale.  Jacksonville is lovely, and also very expensive.  The homes are either new and gorgeous, or old and even more gorgeous, and I swoon over the perfectly restored Craftsman bungalows, many of them which serve as Bed and Breakfast establishments.
By the time we got back to Rocky Point it was late evening, still light thanks to the summer twilight, but late nonetheless.  I was glad that we made our little trip in the “big car”, rather than in the little tow car.  The Lexus comes out for special occasions and local trips, but will never be towed behind the motorhome! It’s comfortable and roomy, although I have to say that the big leather seats in the MoHo are my favorite.  That’s a good thing, since within less than a month we will be embarking on our Alaska journey and I will be in those seats for several weeks!
DSC_0118

Final days on the Oregon Coast

camping at South Beach SP (17)Even though we arrived home Sunday night, May 8th, soil survey work was the priority this week and blog updates were a bit lower on the list.  After seeing the blip in blogger, I was just as glad I didn’t spend a lot of time trying to update! The other BIG priority was completing our work on the greenhouse, but more about that on another post.

Thought I would mention SmugMug.  I saw the website on E-Squared and Mui’s blog in addition to  Froggi Donna’s blog, and decided to check it out.  I have used Picasa for all its handy features, but with the volume of photos that I take and upload, I still have to pay a fee for storage.  The SmugMug site isn’t free, but it IS delightful, and after perusing it a bit, I decided to go for it.  Eventually I will manage to upload all my past photos to the site, and that takes time on a satellite connection, but for now, at least all my current photos are there.  One of the things I love most about SmugMug vs. Picasa is the ability to organize photos into categories and subcategories, which makes for much easier viewing.  Here is an example:  a link to the set of galleries that are from our recent Oregon Coast Trip.   

camping at South Beach SP (5)Of course, the other major feature available with SmugMug is the ability to store all your photos at the original resolution, and to download them again at that resolution with no charge.  I learned about this once the hard way, losing some photos and going back to Shutterfly (which I used prior to Picasa) to retrieve them, only to find I had to pay for a shipped CD to get full resolution.  SmugMug is a great backup, for a fee of course, but worth it in my opinion.

After four gorgeous sunny days in the Brookings “Banana Belt”, we drove north to South Beach State Park just south of Newport to spend a couple of days camping with Mo’s brother, Dan and wife Chere.  They traveled from Beaver Creek Oregon to spend some time at their favorite beach park.  Even though the water is actually half a mile from the campground, I can see why Dan likes it.  He has two big dogs who need lots of space, and there are miles of lovely trails and open space where he can run the dogs each day.  Chere loves the cozy comfort of the motorhome and a great book, so it’s perfect for them.  It was wonderful to see Dan looking so healthy and happy, since just last fall he scared all of us with a bout with throat cancer.  Pretty amazing how he came through the surgery and radiation, and according to all the reports, he is back good as new.  He is getting back his sense of taste, and looks wonderful. Of course, there will be periodic checks in his future, but the worst is over.

family at South Beach (10)camping at South Beach SP (3)We enjoyed the morning walks with all  the dogs, and the hike to the beach was nice, even though it was cloudy, and quite windy.  The two days went by quickly with long afternoon campfires, spurts of rain, and bits of blue emerging from the clouds now and then.  We shared dinners and breakfasts and on Saturday evening trundled off to Newport to explore the Old Town area, find some fudge and some gorgeous coastal art, and check out the harbor sea lions.

I hadn’t heard that NOAA “National Atmospheric and Oceanic Administration”,  decided to move to Newport.  Dan showed us the new site under construction.  What a loss for Seattle and what a huge boon to the town of Newport.  The new site is just inside the harbor beyond the famous Newport bridge, and very close to the open ocean.  In Seattle, the facility was many miles from open sea on Puget Sound.  We talked about what a difference Newport will be for the 175 families relocating there.  Some may love it and others may have a hard time with the isolation of the Oregon Coast after all the amenities of a big city like Seattle.

family at South Beach (3)We left South Beach early Sunday morning, deciding on the route east from Florence directly to Eugene.  I love Florence, which has an actual downtown, a beautiful kayakable harbor and estuaries, and beautiful surroundings. We had a spontaneous Mom’s Day breakfast at a comfy little local restaurant before traveling the easy route east. Florence isn’t as warm as Brookings, but the convenience to Eugene was impressive.  We put Florence on the “possibility” list for our nine-years-out relocation to a less snowy place! Who knows, magic happens and wherever we should be will show up when the time is right, I am sure.

family at South Beach (33)On the way home, we decided to detour north a bit to La Pine and visit Mo’s other brother Roger and wife Nancy.  Roger was recuperating from back surgery just three days prior, and was in amazing shape considering he was barely out of the hospital.  After a great visit, we traveled the last leg of our trip south and home.  It’s always amazing to me as we cross the Wood River Valley west of Chiloquin to see the massive green slopes of the trip routeCascades rise above the rich valley.  The sun was setting between the clouds and the mountain crest creating a brilliant backlight to the shadowy clouds.  As always, it was good to be home, knowing that part of my family is close by in town.

We drove about 700 miles and this time our costs averaged about $89 per day.  We never paid more than $4.00 per gallon for gasoline, and found that Florence actually had the cheapest gas at 3.79 pg at the local Fred Meyer’s. State Parks in Oregon are certainly cheaper than California, with our partial hookup (water and electric with cable at Harris Beach) sites costing 27.00 per night and an $8.00 reservation fee for each park. Both parks had on-site dump stations. We only ate out twice along the way, not wanting to miss fish and chips on the coast or a Mom’s Day breakfast that I didn’t have to cook.  It seems that travel for us manages to average out somewhere around 70 to 120 per day, whether we are cruising around in the motorhome or on a ship.  I know that motorhome travel can be much more thrifty if you boondock more and move around less, but so far, we have wanted to enjoy our trips without having to manage our travels around the most thrifty options.  I am sure if we were full-timing, the choices would be far different.